21 July 2010

God or No God? [2]

It’s an age old decision to never take part in theism/atheism argument.

Personal experiences tell me that religious people tend to react badly (emotionally too) if something hurts their beliefs – well, they have something to lose, if the argument doesn’t favour them. (Why should I do it?)

It must be true with non-theists too, but they are in general more open (or at least aren’t too sentimentally attached to non-theism – of course, they have only a God to gain; nothing to lose.)

Obviously, a very hard decision to follow. Lately, I had been following some bright blogs [Greta, mal-bright]  and they made me a bit edgy when it came to God.

To add insult to injury, after my dad’s demise, I am even entertaining the thoughts of militant atheism. Read WikiLink.

Yesterday (late afty), I did get atheist-businto one such argument. My opponent challenged me that she’ll break my arguments one by one  in the evening. Luckily, there wasn’t any argument. Lucky, because such arguments usually don’t reach an end, and I am very good at hurting others’ beliefs.

All the same, I prepared a LIST of thoughts/questions which could be used in such arguments. Most of them aren’t even explained well, each point is simple a tip of a huge iceberg.

You could read them, use them, answer the questions if you want. If you take it very serious, you could even copy paste them to an editor, answer them and send them over to me.

Signing off, Sands.

PS: For your benefit, I copy paste the thoughts/questions here! :)

  1. What is God?

    • Everything?
    • Surveillance camera?
    • Concept to help the weak??
    • Cannot even define??
  2. What does he/she do?
    • Creation? - why think a complex thing got created from nothingness, than the simple universe created itself?
    • Taking care of things? - look around at the state of affairs.
  3. How do you prove?
    • Russel's Teapot? - teapot going around sun, between earth and mars. The one who claims its existence should prove it.
    • Flying Spaghetti Monster. - we were all created 5 minutes ago. Just that our brains were filled with long lasting memories.
    • Invisible Pink Unicorn… :)
  4. If he/she does exist, what is the big deal to prove it?
  5. Why should all questions be answered?
    • What if a lifetime in not enough?
    • What goes wrong if a Question is not answered? (should we be satisfied with a wrong answer than none?)

      The magic I don't understand is a miracle? or not? Why can’t we take that time will show it to us slowly, but now it is unknown.

  6. God of the Gaps? Shrinking God?

    This argument has the form

    • There is a gap in scientific knowledge.
    • Therefore, the things in this gap are best explained as acts of God.
    This is not based in logic. It is simply a statement of pessimism about the future progress of science.

    The God is shrinking. 1

  7. Does God interfere with normal life/mortals?
    • If yes, why all these atrocities?
    • If no, think about praying.
  8. is Life = God?
  9. I could be wrong; So could you be.. right??
  10. Faith = without proof? (axiom?)

    I refuse to accept something without a proof. You believe in something without proof? Because someone said so? How can he be right? (Flying spaghetti monster and teapot)

  11. How about other religions? are they wrong too? Just your religion is right?
  12. Does majority/minority matter? – if yes, people who don’t believe in your faith is MORE than the ones who do .. and it is true for EVERY religion. If no, never say atheists are less in number.
  13. I see a bear and a lion hugging each other here. Am I hallucinating?
    • What if I see God in my dream? How is it different from normal dreaming?
  14. Do miracles happen? Coincidences? (Have you heard the word probability?)
  15. Could the scriptures be wrong?
    • Why life is so hard if they have everything in there?

      All it takes is read the scriptures up and have a good life?

    • Why dedicate life for science? Go learn the scriptures – well which religions’ ??
    • Scriptures are finite, Unknown is infinite. How can we have infinite knowledge in finite scriptures?

      (I know examples of mistakes in Indian scriptures - esp. in Astrology/Astronomy. Not to mention church’s reaction to heliocentric system.)

      (When science makes mistakes and gets it corrected later, they simply accept it without fighting.)

  16. Why most logical thinkers are Atheists?
  17. You deny N Gods, atheists deny N+1. What’s the big deal?
  18. Are all Gods the same? then why do religions contradict? Why doesn't he/she step in and make people understand and make the world a better place? (have you heard about the tower of Babel?)
  19. Why natural disasters? Did/Do all those people deserve same treatment at same time?
  20. How does praying help? Isn’t it as bad as bribery? Does god need reminding? Can he not simply know your wishes? why utter them?
    If praying doesn't help...why pray?


1Down through the centuries, science has eliminated a great many of its gaps. People who had used the Gap argument were embarrassed, since their God shrank in power with each new scientific advance. For example, after the work of Galileo and Newton, it was no longer thought that angels pushed the planets across the heavens.

A more recent example is the argument by some Creationists that complex molecules (such as amino acids) could not have arisen by natural processes on the early earth. Hence, life could not have arisen by natural means, and God must have miraculously created these chemicals while creating life. The chemicals were part of a Purpose.

The basis of this argument was a gap in scientific knowledge. This basis fell apart when molecules (including organic molecules) were detected in interstellar space by astronomers. The argument came further apart when amino acids were found inside the Murchison meteorite. Apparently the basic molecules of life form naturally in some quite harsh places, and there is a way for vast quantities to have arrived intact on the early earth. So, their existence has Purpose only to the extent that the entire galaxy does.


Anonymous said...

"All will be small and short (hence sweet and beautiful too)"


- Anony

Anonymous said...

Nice article... :)

I loved point number 17.. :)

and abt 10. I always wondered abt it..

In Science we have axioms and we believe in them until someone disproves it!! Isn't that somewhat similar to theists??


Anonymous said...


F*&K you. Belief does not require reason. I believe in my god and you will rot in hell when you die because there is no place in heaven for such zealots.


PS: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-29-2003/even-stevphen---islam-vs--christianity

Sands | കരിങ്കല്ല് said...


a) sorry :P ... the rest of them will be short ;)


Hmm.. regarding 10.

a) Science axioms are the evident truths... (like parallel lines don't intersect.. read Euclid's axioms... and even those are questioned by others. There are different geometries made by not following the axioms)

b) Hilbert and co. tried to build it from scratch; Goedel proved the inconsistency and math/science accepted it and move on.

Axioms aren't like Faith - But there's always this point which comes up.. hence I put it there.

In theism, axiom is like - "there is God, hence there is God".

Looks similar to "Cogito ergo sum" - "I think, there for I am" --- but only cyclic proof. Alas!

(We could take this offline if you want ;) )


Loved your comment. Made it even my status message! :P

Gregory Sams said...

I'm surprised you left the Sun out of your discussion, considering your blog title. It wasn't science but a jealous Church that burnt solar reverence out of our culture. And considering that consciousness is the most mysterious aspect of our own existence, it is a tad arrogant to assume that nothing else enjoys it - especially a hugely energetic character like the Sun. Our own consciousness is energetic after all, is it not?

And if the Sun is conscious, it could well deserve divinity status.

Just a thought, though I did write an entire book on the subject.

Greg, author of "Sun of gOd"

Anonymous said...

You might find this link interesting:



arun babu said...

Bold post Sir, Kudos. You are perfectly right.

11 + 18 points - can anyone answer. I have seen people of all faiths crying, and have a sense of feeling they are "answered". Yet all of these people contradict each other living their life-off in their dumb shell.